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PSU Ins and Outs?

Postby epichero on Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:00 pm

Sup


Something that has been on my mind for quite some time is how to figure out the specifics of how a PSU works. For simplicity, here's a PC I'm looking to build for myself in the future, and the questions I have:

Video Card: 2 x Radeon 5770, Crossfire
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150447

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128362

PSU: Antec Tru Power TP-750, 750 Watt
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371022

CPU: Intel i7 920
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202

That's it in a nutshell. Here are the questions I have:

1. The video card says it needs a "minimum 450 watt PSU requirement." If I'm using two, does that mean I need to double the output wattage of the PSU, or need a throughput of 900 watts?

2. I'm guessing I don't need 900 watts, but lets say I was only getting one video card. How much more wattage would I need to power the second card?

3. How would the memory, fans, CPU, etc, add to the power requirements?

4. My current PSU is 500 Watts, and has only one 6-pin video card connector. If I wanted to add a second video card in SLI / Crossfire, could I use one of the molex / SATA power connectors with a converter to power the new card?

That's it for now. Appreciate your feedback.
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CPU: Intel Q9550 @ 2.83 GHz
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PSU: OCZ StealthXStream 500W
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Re: PSU Ins and Outs?

Postby Komet on Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:37 pm

1. No.

2. You would need to add the same amount of maximum wattage it takes to power the first card.

3. Memory and fans? Practically none unless you truly have a fuckton of them. Allocating 50w would be reasonable. CPU? Really depends on whether you're overclocking or not, how many cores you're pushing, etc. Some desktop cpus take 65w or less, my overclocked, overvolted opteron over there is pulling down approximately 150w at full tilt.

4. You could try it. If you don't have enough amps to push what you're doing, it won't be happy times.


I think you're asking a lot of the wrong questions, so I'm going to bother to tell you the things you didn't ask for. When you're building a PC, the first thing you need to do is figure out your general needs by using a psu calculator like this one. That will tell you what your theoretical system is going to pull down. Turn up all the TDPs to max and don't forget to overclock if you swing that way. I just specced out my PC on there and got 335w, which is pretty damn accurate since I also just ran Dragon Age (which maxxes out both cores and the gpu) and my UPS told me I was pulling down about 325w. At an idle, my machine pulls down about 238w, which is an important statistic for fan speed noise in relation to power supply draw, but that's sort of for later.

Whatever that number comes out to be, you want to add at least a couple hundred watts to. Why would you do that? So your psu isn't running at 100% all the time. That's hard on the psu and makes them irritatingly loud. SPCR's research in power supply loudness per 50w of load tends to suggest that the volume increases exponentially somewhere north of 50% load, so for a system like mine, a 550 to 600w psu is a reasonable choice for quietness. Also, that allows me plenty of headroom to upgrade. Technically I could scrape by with a strong 450w psu, but I wouldn't want to add anything to the system.

Let's say I had a motherboard that supported SLI, and I wanted to slam another 9600GT in here right now. How many watts does my video card pull down? GPUReview probably knows. 95 watts it says, so if I were to theoretically run SLI on this machine, my system would pull down 325+95 = 420w under gaming 3d. Now that 450w psu would be really straining, but the 550 - 600w PSU would be right in the sweet spot for maximum efficiency, perhaps at the cost of some decibels.

Now, there's more to this story than just watts, and back in the day we all used to kick faces in at least once per day talking about amps amps amps, because you need a specific amount of amps (maybe I should say amperage to piss off all the EEs like noob master) to push your video card. The suppliers only recommend power supplies in terms of wattage because people are stupid and typically if you buy a power supply of high enough wattage, it will have enough amps to push your card. But it might not have enough to push two. And it might not be able to push one big card later. So what you need to bother to do, is figure out the amp draw on the +12 rail of your video card. How is this done? It's not as easy as the watts because some companies don't publish it. Search for your card from multiple manufacturers, and one of them is likely to have it listed. Newegg is useful for this, and occasionally lists the amp requirements in the specifications of the product. I couldn't find any info from XFX for the amps, but gigabyte off newegg says they want 24amps, evga's website doesn't have a 9600gt listed anymore, but they have a 9600gso that requires 18amps and a 9800gt that requires 24amps. It's pretty safe at this point to assume that my card requires at least 24amps on the +12 rail.

Reviews from enthusiast sites also tend to list amp requirements, and it's easier to catch those on recent cards than some old relic like mine. For SLI, apparently I used to say double the amp figure from one card and roll with that. So to run SLI 9600GTs in my system, I'd need at least a 550w psu with 48a (combined) on the +12 rail(s), which I do not have. The NUUO puts out a maximum of 38a, and I'd be most likely fucked. What's worse is, the NUUO was even SLI certified. However, it was certified for two 6800GTs, which pull a maximum of 19-20w, riding right up on the maximum output of my old psu (20+18 = 38a).

So there. I think that fills the gap between what you were trying to say and where you wanted to go.
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epichero wrote:You don't like like the person I envisioned at all. The person I envisioned was someone ungroomed, unkempt, with poor hygiene and a creepy smile. You look like a good, wholesome, all-American Christian youth. Too bad you're not.
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GPU: XFX 9600GT
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PSU: Sunbeam NUUO 550w
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Re: PSU Ins and Outs?

Postby epichero on Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:58 am

Awesome. That really clarifies a lot.


I took it a step further and went to see what some typical video card requirements are. Namely, the 5870 series. I looked up three that have requirements listed on Newegg (Sapphire, HIS, and Diamond), and they all listed a requirement of 2 x 75 W 6-pin connectors. 75 Watts / 12 Volts = 6.25 Amps minimal requirement on each 6-pin (if my conversion is correct, W = V * A). Then I looked at some high-end Antec and CM PSUs, and they listed their 12V connectors at 20 - 28 amps. So based on your feedback, I'm thinking that both PSUs can run two or three of these cards well, correct?

What I don't understand is how a GeForce 270 can run in SLI; I looked up Palit's and EVGA's, and they listed the 12V requirements at 40 Amps? Wtf ..that's 480 Watts, or I'm doing something wrong. GPUReview said it's max power draw is 219 W, which translates into 18.25 Amps. Or..it could mean that each of the 6-pin connectors on the GPU need 20 amps at 12V.

Notes:
1. GPU Review said the 5870's max power draw is 188 Watts, I'm guessing that the extra overhead is drawn from the board?

2. Based on what I've seen, and without a better survey, I would assume that the power supply requirements are roughly the same based on the chip rather than the board manufacturer.

I'll leave it up to you to correct me.

Thanks again.
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User avatar
epichero
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:52 am
Location: Southern California
CPU: Intel Q9550 @ 2.83 GHz
MB: Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L
GPU: Sapphire Radeon 3870 512
RAM: 4 x 2GB G.SKILL PC2 8000
PSU: OCZ StealthXStream 500W
SC: On-board Realtek ALC888
OS #1: Windows 7 Professional
OS #2: Multiple Virtual Machines

Re: PSU Ins and Outs?

Postby Komet on Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:12 am

Don't bother with math because the numbers don't typically add up. It's a lot easier just to pull data from somewhere else. ATI will tell you what works directly, or you can go pull the data off a review. guru3d says the 5870 draws 188 watts and 30a, and you'll need double that for crossfire.

A geforce gtx 280 pulls down 236w and 40a. Based on the previous two criteria alone, it would appear to derive amp usage, the formula would be (peak load watts / 12) * 2, but I'm not sure how that makes sense.

For the most part, yes each gpu is going to have the same power requirements regardless of manufacturer. Many companies choose to factory overclock their gpus though, which would increase their power usage by a little bit.

The Antec Truepower 750 you have listed there has a maximum amp delivery of 62a, and could safely power two 5870s. Definitely not three.
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epichero wrote:You don't like like the person I envisioned at all. The person I envisioned was someone ungroomed, unkempt, with poor hygiene and a creepy smile. You look like a good, wholesome, all-American Christian youth. Too bad you're not.
User avatar
Komet
Who's the llama now?
Who's the llama now?
 
Posts: 2683
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:23 pm
Location: Redmond, WA
CPU: C2D E2200 @ 3.1Ghz
MB: abit IP35-E
GPU: XFX 9600GT
RAM: 2x2GB G.Skill 4GBPQ
PSU: Sunbeam NUUO 550w
SC: Razer Barracuda
Steam ID: red_komet
PS3 ID: theredkomet
Wii ID: 7734541838954115
OS #1: Windows 7 Pro x64

Re: PSU Ins and Outs?

Postby epichero on Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:06 am

Cool. That really clears up a lot of questions I've been having. Thanks again.
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User avatar
epichero
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:52 am
Location: Southern California
CPU: Intel Q9550 @ 2.83 GHz
MB: Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L
GPU: Sapphire Radeon 3870 512
RAM: 4 x 2GB G.SKILL PC2 8000
PSU: OCZ StealthXStream 500W
SC: On-board Realtek ALC888
OS #1: Windows 7 Professional
OS #2: Multiple Virtual Machines


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